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Mmr Again

What do you think of this?

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#31 Doryfish

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

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I don't mean to sound repetitive this is about risk factors. There is a MUCH higher risk of your 1 year old catching measels and getting complications that than the extremely low (or none in my opinion) risks of it causing Autism.

 

And personally, even with having a two children with autism, I would rather my child was alive with autism than not at all. It is as simple as that for me.


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#32 Janey

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:03 PM

I am in two minds whether the MMR contributed to my sons autism, but I do believe in it and would have had him immunised but just not when I did. (Shortly after having chicken pox when his immune system would have been compromised).

 

Everything in life has a risk and the human body reacts in ways depending on the person, (why are some people allergic to nuts and others aren't?)

 

I think it is quite possible that some children could get autism from the MMR but it is no way the only cause and would be impossible to prove, but the greater good means that all children should be immunised to protect the vulnerable from the savage effects of these diseases and if some children do react to the vaccine they should be properly supported.

 

Nothing in life is 100% safe but you have to weigh up the risks and make a judgement for everyone not just yourself.

 

Janey :)


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#33 imperfect parent

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:13 PM

I had a discussion on the MMR with my youngest.  It came about because it had been a concern that his older brother was showing symptoms of measles, but it was ruled out by medical staff.  DS2 was extremely amused to hear that while his brother has had both MMR vaccinations he has only had the one.  His second was due at the height of the scare, and his brother was already very challenging and under assessment for autism.  DS finds it highly amusing that we decided not to give him the vaccination yet he, like his brother,has a diagnosis of ASD.  DD has had both vaccinations and although she shows some ASD traits does not concern us enough to warrant an ASD assessment.

 

There is sufficient evidence in our family to indicate a genetic link to ASD.  I firmly believe that a lot of the increase in diagnosis is due to a mixture of better recognition and change in expectation.  School and society are are less structured and busier than when I was a child.  Over stimulation is a huge issue as are crowded places.  We travel more, socialise more and generally see many more people than we used to.


Edited by imperfect parent, 27 April 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#34 maximus prime

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

I do know people who are convinced  their children are damaged due to having the Mmr. That is my experience. JR, Until someone can tell us what that something else is, some of us remain unconvinced, especially after witnessing regression straight after the Mmr jab.


Lucy up until twelve months was a typical baby, she was laughing smiling waving clapping, doing peepo and round the garden and starting to talk. She was nothing like Jack who had been diagnosed with autism 6 years earlier.

Then like many of the reports you read Lucy started to make a high pitched whine, she'd been fine the day previously when we saw the GP and she'd waved and smiled as we left. When the whining stopped Lucy was changed, she could no longer wave or smile or clap, she was silent and she didn't make another sound for six months.

We saw the GP who referred her straight to a paediatrician and she was diagnosed with moderate to severe autism around her second birthday.

My experience sounds identical to the reports we read about, the parents convinced that the MMR caused the regression and loss of skills doesn't it? Only thing is Lucy hadn't had MMR, she hadn't been ill, when the GP saw her the day previously it was me seeing the GP Lucy was happy fit and well.

So if it happened to Lucy how many other children could it have happened to but it was attributed to MMR?

Incidentally my mum's cousin died from measles, not immediately though, he contracted encephalitis that left him deaf blind and wheelchair bound unable to swallow and with the severe epilepsy that eventually killed him twelve years later.












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#35 Jolly Roger

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

OK, let's try a different tack.

There is a risk to vaccination - that has always been acknowledged.

You can see details here:
http://en.wikipedia..../Vaccine_injury

However, what is known about autism is quite different - indicating that the causes actually occur in the womb before birth, with a possible genetic element.
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#36 Doryfish

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

Can I just ask how you would feel if your child caught measels (but was ok) but gave it to an adult you know who caught it and was not fine?

 

I know that if I had not vaccinated my children and either of them caught the disease and were badly effected or worse I would never be able to forgive myself. I do not blame myself for 'giving my children autism' by vaccinating them against a potentially deadly disease because 1) it didn't make them autistic and 2) I still have my children.

 

It just my opinion but I think it irrepsonsible for anyone to deliberately not vaccinate against something that is KNOWN to cause extreme side effects when the alternative has NOT been proven and is unlikely to ever be. You might not care about the risk for your child but what about other people's children and the rest of society?



#37 lisac

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:26 PM

I think some of you may be missing my point. I saw my son change overnight after he was given the Mmr jab. It is in his Drs records that I went back the day after next with a very poorly and changed child back in 1988. Even though there is no publicly known scientific link, my mothers instinct is that he was damaged. You can argue until the cows come home, but you were not there, I was. I am not hallucinating now or then and I am certain as I saw it happen myself. I was sure it could not be a coincidence. I do not need scientific proof, I know what I see, feel and sense.  So we are going to have to agree to disagree, I hope thats ok.

It does seem strange to me  how years ago when kids caught measles, mumps, chickenpox etc there were much lower numbers of autistic kids and adults about though.

 



#38 maximus prime

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:30 PM

I saw it too, changed overnight, my GP documented it but Lucy hadn't had MMR and what's to say that what happened with your ds wouldn't have happened regardless just as it did to Lucy?
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#39 Doryfish

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:34 PM

I hadn't realised that the scientific evidence at the time stated that the MMR could change a child over night...

 

I am so sorry that you experienced what was clearly a very traumatic time, I really mean that. My children's traits were not noticed in that way, they became apparent over time and worsened as they grew older. Seeing such a change must have been very distressing for you.

 

However I will never believe it is right to take a risk which could physically harm others based on a hunch and disproven theory. I beleive what happened with your child was nothing more than coincidence. Given the press around at the time I can understand why you might have felt it was linked but I firmly believe there is NO link and never has been.

 

The reason there has been more cases is because of KNOWLEDGE, nothing more.

 

Plus, I would still ask how you would feel having not vaccinated if a close friend or family member contracted it and suffered serious complications?


Edited by Doryfish, 27 April 2013 - 09:37 PM.


#40 Snickas

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

I saw it too, changed overnight, my GP documented it but Lucy hadn't had MMR and what's to say that what happened with your ds wouldn't have happened regardless just as it did to Lucy?

exactly the same with J too MP (hes not had his MMR either, due to having 2 with difficulties, at the time) and its also documented that there was a regression at 18mths old...which is why I put it down to genetics having 2 other children diagnosed with ASD and 1 with ADHD and a half brother diagnosed with ASD) and the lack of developement of his brain that forms from birth to 2yrs of age, with 18mths old, something didn't happen that should have IYWIM.

 

Deffo agree with Doryfish, its knowledge that has caused more children to be diagnosed.

 

 



 


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#41 maximus prime

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:51 PM

Jack at six weeks caught whooping cough, not from his siblings because they had been immunised but most likely from a child when we had been taking his siblings to school. The parent who chose not to immunise their child was happy to take a risk with their child's life however it's unforgivable that they were happy to risk the life of mine IMO.

That's the thing about immunisation your choice not to immunise doesn't only potentially affect your child it also potentially affects other children whose parents have every intention of immunising when their child is of age.


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#42 Doryfish

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:53 PM

That is precisely my point MP and it also effects adults who haven't had measels as a child but didn't get immunised because it didn't exist then. The risk factor isn't purely selfish.


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#43 maximus prime

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

I saw it too, changed overnight, my GP documented it but Lucy hadn't had MMR and what's to say that what happened with your ds wouldn't have happened regardless just as it did to Lucy?

exactly the same with J too MP (hes not had his MMR either, due to having 2 with difficulties, at the time) and its also documented that there was a regression at 18mths old...which is why I put it down to genetics having 2 other children diagnosed with ASD and 1 with ADHD and a half brother diagnosed with ASD) and the lack of developement of his brain that forms from birth to 2yrs of age, with 18mths old, something didn't happen that should have IYWIM.
 
Deffo agree with Doryfish, its knowledge that has caused more children to be diagnosed.
 
 


 
 



Lucy's autism is most likely down genetics too, the whining she experienced was most likely cerebral irritation, I thing she was born with a self destruct button in her brain and hers went off coincidentally at about the time her MMR was due.

She had her MMR the week after dx with no worsening of her symptoms and she had the booster too.

I would still, even having two with autism, advise parents to have the MMR. I couldn't live with myself if my child contracted something that was entirely preventable particularly when the effects of something like measles can be devastating.My mum's cousin suffered, really suffered for twelve years before he died and his parents went through hell.
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#44 Helenllama

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:15 PM

It does seem strange to me  how years ago when kids caught measles, mumps, chickenpox etc there were much lower numbers of autistic kids and adults about though.

These lower numbers are also being increasingly diagnosed as on the spectrum now. It may be "false" reporting in this case as well.  

A lot of them will have either had measles etc or would have been vaccinated. 



#45 Mozzy

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:50 AM

It does seem strange to me  how years ago when kids caught measles, mumps, chickenpox etc there were much lower numbers of autistic kids and adults about though.

 

There are not many studies pre MMR or even post MMR but you can find some stats online. I use them in training. I will find them for you when I am next in work but there is a massive jump before even the MMR was introduced and like Helen said this could be due to diagnostic approaches, how it was more accepted to be "different" and various other things.

 

Maybe in some the MMR is a trigger or the feeling ill its self is a trigger and the bog standard flu could do the same. Who knows. But I think you need to look further at info pre MMR.





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