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Mmr Again

What do you think of this?

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#16 Jolly Roger

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

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Frankly, what does he mean by asking for an "open scientific debate?"

If he means he wants a professional exchange of scientific ideas reflecting the highest standards of the scientific method, then he knows how to proceed:
1. He conducts his research in adherence to the legal and ethical standards that are recognised globally, under the scrutiny and supervision of an independent authority
2. He submits his findings, along with all of his data, to a journal where it will be peer reviewed by independent experts before being published
3. His findings are then published, and other scientists will have the opportunity to try to replicate his research - and if they can it is upheld, if not it will be refuted.

If he doesn't mean that, then he is employing what is called "pathological science."

http://en.wikipedia....logical_science
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#17 lisac

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:17 PM

He has asked for a public debate. I would be interested to hear him out then I could make up my mind. Until then im not taking any chances with another life.



#18 Snickas

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:24 PM


He has asked for a public debate. I would be interested to hear him out then I could make up my mind. Until then im not taking any chances with another life.

 

controversial i know, but you're prepared to risk a life by possibly catching measels?!?!?!

 

If you had fully researched any links on this discussion, you would know:

Scientific research has been done, by an 'independent high-quality evidence for health-care decision making' company here:

http://summaries.coc...mps-and-rubella

 

That found:

 




Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause severe morbidity, disability and death in low-income countries.

Based on the evidence provided by three cohort studies (3104 participants), vaccination with one dose of MMR vaccine is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles among preschool children; in schoolchildren and adolescents at least one dose of MMR vaccine was 98% effective in preventing laboratory-confirmed measles cases; one or two MMR doses were respectively 92% and 95% effective in preventing secondary measles cases.

At least one dose of MMR vaccine is effective in preventing clinical mumps among children and adolescents when prepared with Jeryl Lynn strains (vaccine effectiveness = 69% to 81%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1656 participants), as well as when prepared with Urabe strain (vaccine effectiveness = 70% to 75%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1964 participants). Effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed mumps in children and adolescents was estimated to be between 64% to 66% for one and 83% to 88% for two doses of Jeryl Lynn MMR (two case-control studies, 1664 participants) and 87% for Urabe-containing MMR (one cohort study, 48 participants). Vaccination with Urabe MMR confers protection against secondary mumps infection (vaccine effectiveness = 73%, one cohort study, 147 participants).

We identified no studies assessing the effectiveness of MMR vaccine against clinical or laboratory-confirmed rubella.

Results from two very large case series studies involving about 1,500,000 children who were given the MMR vaccine containing Urabe or Leningrad-Zagreb strains show this vaccine to be associated with aseptic meningitis; whereas administration of the vaccine containing Moraten, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA, RIT 4385 strains is associated with febrile convulsion in children aged below five years (one person-time cohort study, 537,171 participants; two self controlled case series studies, 1001 participants). The MMR vaccine could also be associated with idiopathic thrombocytopaenic purpura (two case-controls, 2450 participants, one self controlled case series, 63 participants).

We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results.

The glossary of study designs is available in the full-text review.

 

BTW this includes all links to evidences, reports, studies etc etc etc


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#19 Jolly Roger

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:43 PM

He has asked for a public debate. I would be interested to hear him out then I could make up my mind. Until then im not taking any chances with another life.


This isn't about who can be the most persuasive.

It is about science, and as Neil deGrasse Tyson says, "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

By all means, listen to Wakefield - there is enough of his stuff on YouTube and all over the Internet, but I urge you to try and spot the difference between science (which deals in hard, provable facts) and the persuasive methods used by Wakefield's supporters and anti vaccine campaigners.

Tear-jerking stories about catastrophic regression that happened after vaccination are not scientific. Neither are news reports about vaccine injury compensation payouts.

All children with autism suffer regressions all the time. Regressions are caused by development progress, or by changes in environment, or illness, or even having learned something.

What science does is gather data from the billions of people who have received the MMR and use massive computers to look for patterns. Campaigners on both sides of this debate have spent hundreds of millions on trying to find a link or a correlation between the MMR and autism. They have compared countries where MMR is compulsory with countries where it has NEVER been used; they have examined countries where is was used for a while and then removed.

And NO-ONE has found a link between MMR and autism.

In the immortal words of Sherlock Holmes, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

The truth is that the regression many parents blame the MMR for was caused by something else.

#20 lisac

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

Snickas I dont know anyone who has caught measles and been damaged. I do know people who are convinced  their children are damaged due to having the Mmr. That is my experience. JR, Until someone can tell us what that something else is, some of us remain unconvinced, especially after witnessing regression straight after the Mmr jab.



#21 Snickas

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

A person died just the other day from having measels...hang on I'll just find it.

Oh sorry, the tests were inconclusive http://www.bbc.co.uk...-wales-22299596

 

Could the regression be related to this: http://www.jneurosci...8/47/12176.full

 

Brain development from birth to 2years of age? Or even genetics? It certainly is our family.


Edited by Snickas, 27 April 2013 - 02:12 PM.

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#22 Mozzy

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

How many of you know Temple Grandin? Or Kim Peak? Ever heard these names? How about the blind Autistic piano player Derek whatever his name is (cannot spell it). Or Donna Williams? Wendy Lawson? Ros Blackburn? These are all people who have Autism and who are adults my age or older who give talks world wide. None of them had the MMR as a child because it wasn't about.

 

You have to do whats right and what feels right in your head is all you can do because there is no one study that says yes or no. Different people have different views. But Autism was about long before the MMR and even though the number of people having the jab has dropped the rate of Autism has still increased.

 

Autism can be hard, people say it wrecks lives and I know it does but measles kills.

 

Do what you feel is right because only you have to live with the decision so read what you can, good and bad, speak to people and make sure the final decision is your decision.



#23 cathwyn

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

AAgh! i HAD TO LOG IN AND NOW MY POST HAS DISAPPEARED..SORRY!

 

 


Edited by cathwyn, 27 April 2013 - 03:58 PM.


#24 applesmith

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

MMR was not the cause of my sons autism. Its genetic. This latest round of descussion he now 13 was in the car about MMR and unproved link with autism.now he is self aware at 13. I reassured him THE MMR and the booster at 5, were not a cause of his autism. He is a genetically inherited it from us his parents.since I share some of his autism traits and my hubbys OCD its not hard to see where his charcteristics come from
When all the Wakefield hype took over I did delay his y year booster at the time,because he had already been diganosed with ASD, but Mumps was doing the rounds and my older teenagers had not had the Mmr booster, only the first baby shot, so while at the doctors for them, we thought P at 5 should have it too. And it made no difference to his autism then. All the studys of autism we have had since and now says autism is basically genetic.its in the population world wide.
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#25 Doryfish

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:40 PM

My three all had the MMR in its entirety and yes, two of them now have diagnosis. But, only two of them have... why would the jab only affect two of my children? It doesn't make sense!

 

The only reason people became frightened is because of Wakefield who has been discredited and now does not practice in this country. As many previously have pointed out, there are many people who have autism and did not have the MMR and many many more who had the MMR and did not get autism.

 

The reason (in my opinion) that there are more confirmed cases of ASD is because of better understanding of the spectrum and higher levels of knowledge amongst professionals alongside more awareness generally which helps parents to be more aware of the early signs.

 

My personal opinion is: EVEN if there was a smallest chance of the MMR contributing to Autism, the chances of that happening compared with the possible outcome of catching measels have no comparison and I would still always make the decision to protect my child against disease which can potentially be lethal.

 

For me it's about worst case scenarios of both options and it my belief that there is a lot higher chance of causing damage by not vaccinating than giving it.

 

However, I was led to believe that the single vaccinations were never under question but I may be wrong about that... if that is the case, can you not just give him the measels jab and not the whole MMR for now?


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#26 Helenllama

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:24 PM

Measles certainly Kill.

 

I am of an age where I had both the MMR and Individual Measles vaccines. I didn't have the MMR until I was 4. I'm still autistic and there is video footage of my 3rd Birthday Party with me not interacting with anyone.  

 

Ok Biologist head on here. 

 

In regards to the scientific validity of the MMR. Since that fated study there have been many more with the results replicated. If the MMR did cause autism the results from the Wakefield study would have been replicated. They haven't. You also have to consider the bias of the researchers - the Lancet paper was written after the research was for a civil trial and therefore the source of funding plays a role in the results.  It has also since been retracted by the lancet. 

 

In fact except in certain scientific areas (ecology) after some major incident then any scientific result should be able to be replicated on the repetition of any experiment under similar conditions. All the research into the link between ASD and the MMR since 1998 has shown one thing and one thing alone. And that is no link. (Obviously there may be "outliers" that it may have triggered some reaction to.)

 

I am leaving the genetic aspect of this well alone even though I love genetics because I can't explain things well. 


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#27 Jolly Roger

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Snickas I dont know anyone who has caught measles and been damaged. I do know people who are convinced their children are damaged due to having the Mmr. That is my experience. JR, Until someone can tell us what that something else is, some of us remain unconvinced, especially after witnessing regression straight after the Mmr jab.

I'm sorry to be blunt, Lisa, but just because you personally don't know anyone who has been damaged by measles is a very poor reason for not supporting the MMR.

Measles causes complications in 30% of adults who catch it and 5% of children who catch it.

According to the World Health Organisation, before the MMR was introduced measles killed 2.6 million people every year. Even now, with the MMR, measles kills 430 people every day. About 1/1000 people with measles suffer encaphilits, which can cause brain damage and disability. If you catch it when pregnant, you will be lucky if you don't lose the baby - and the chances of the baby not being disabled by it are tiny.

The reason you don't know people who have been damaged by measles is because since the introduction of the MMR, cases in the UK alone have dropped from half a million per year down to a few hundred.

Measles is a nasty, dangerous disease.

However, I was led to believe that the single vaccinations were never under question but I may be wrong about that... if that is the case, can you not just give him the measels jab and not the whole MMR for now?

All vaccinations carry a risk.

#28 lisac

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:50 PM

I hear you, however I do not think it is imperative to vaccinate a 1 year old  (who is still developing), a 4 year old yes, but a 1 year old no. Too risky especially if a close relative has had a visible immediate negative reaction after the Mmr at a similar age. That is just common sense, no ?



#29 Helenllama

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:59 PM

I hear you, however I do not think it is imperative to vaccinate a 1 year old  (who is still developing), a 4 year old yes, but a 1 year old no. Too risky especially if a close relative has had a visible immediate negative reaction after the Mmr at a similar age. That is just common sense, no ?

And the 1 year old is at higher risk from complications from measles. 



doubled checked facts and the high risk age groups are under 5 and over 20. 



#30 lisac

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

I think I would take the risk. Not everyone catches measles or has complications. I think a bit of scare mongering is going on. Just my opinion.


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